GS 309 grain .338 SP bullets
The thread on Sniper's Hide
 
Frank Galli, the owner of Sniper's Hide, writes under the handle of Lowlight. Apart from my posts in this thread, I have added further comment, in brackets, within Mr. Galli's posts.
 
Mr. Galli banned me from Sniper's Hide for pointing out the errors in his statements, forcing me to highlight his lack of comprehension here.  I cannot allow him to continuously make erroneous statements, in ignorance, about GSC bullets, in the one sided manner he has chosen.  -  Gerard Schultz
 
Re: Have we hit the wall? [Re: ELR Researcher]
Lowlight Online   shocked

Stormageddon

Registered: 04/14/01
Posts: 17413
Loc: Base of the Rockies
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By: ELR Researcher
Milo-2:

From the 338 testing thread:

I would also hope that GSC gets into the accuracy round (even the second round of BC) with CURRENT product - the one tested in round one was a pre-2009 design and, per GSC, loaded about 300 fps slow.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

GSC shows a stepped G1 BC on their website and as per their own post they said it was fine to shoot out of the rifles we used. (GS: This post does not exist, in fact GSC specifically asked not to be included in this 'test' because of lack of time to supply supporting information.)  If they wanted a specific load used they should have specified a load, (GS: One would expect that someone with the professed depth of knowledge Mr. Galli claims to have, would know that BC changes with speed and that a realistic speed for the 232gr GSC bullet used, would at least be similar to another bullet, of similar weight, that was tested. Mr. Galli loaded the GSC 232gr bullet slower than a bullet that was 50gr heavier.) however they too have a banded stepped BC listed on their website that does not specify a mandatory velocity to achieve their listed BC. (GS: Here is a link to the technical data page that Mr. Galli refers to:
 
 
Above the three BC numbers are the specified speeds at which these BC are applicable. My conclusion is that Mr. Galli is either lying or failed to understand what the technical information means.)
 
Calculating drop from a ballistic computer without specific load data, to include rifle used and where it was shot is pretty much a "can't confirm anything you say" proposition. As far as the numbers not matching the manufacturers data, that is common and one of the reasons we use .496 for a 175gr SMK instead of .505. With as few a rounds as we had available to shoot we erred on the side of safety rather than push them to the max. Next time make them available with data, we'd be happy to use them to any spec the manufacturer recommended. (GS: Mr. Galli therefore admits that the data given for the GSC bullet is incorrect, yet he continues to publish the incorrect data.)

And while GSC is crying "foul" because the number don't match up, it's interesting to note a poster over at LRH is saying that his experience shooting these bullets beyond 1000 yards yields similar number to the ones posted in the SH 338 Bullet test thread, even for the GEN 2 Bergers, he actually uses a Banded G7 profile that goes as low as .380 out to distance which falls in line with our test numbers. (GS: Mr. Galli conveniently omits to say why GSC is questioning the numbers. GSC has no problem with the result of the test.  Conditions for all bullets tested was similar and all bullets tested returned lower numbers than that which were given by the manufacturers.  The problem I have is with the fact that Mr. Galli made two very basic mistakes.  Firstly he used data for a different GSC bullet even though he knew that it was different.  Secondly, he averaged the stepped BC given by GSC and assumed it to be a number that can be compared to the test BC. The test BC represents the average over the entire trajectory.  The stepped BC, given in the link above, cannot be averaged and regarded as representative of the entire trajectory, because the bullet will spend much more time at the lower BC numbers than at the higher numbers.  Once again, someone with Mr. Galli's professed knowledge should know this.)

We asked, we offered, we were turned down, so take anything written by someone with a vested interested with a grain of salt, especially when they love to debate but refuse to participate. Of course they will have issue when the numbers don't match their $12.00 "per" bullet offering. (GS: Note that Mr. Galli made this comment and, when the correct facts were pointed out to him, he argued the point. Only when it was patently clear that he was wrong did he comment on it.)
_________________________
Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
--Frank Outlaw

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#2993615 - 12/26/11 07:28 PM Re: Have we hit the wall? [Re: Lowlight]
signut Offline
Lance Corporal

Registered: 07/31/03
Posts: 38
Loc: SW Ohio
Very well said; and the numbers just don't lie. (GS: This is a good example of how the effect of Mr. Galli's misrepresentation is working.  He shows a set of numbers, that are correct for the day and method of testing. He then makes an error in calculation and compares the data to numbers for a different bullet and numbers which are intended for a different purpose. The reader does not know this and comes to the wrong conclusion.)  The results on target and thru the acoustic chrono's are the ones to trust, not a sales pitch for the best wonder bullet. (GS: I tried several times to correct Mr. Galli's errors but he deleted my posts and eventually banned me from Sniper's Hide. There is therefore no way that I can counter or explain erroneous perceptions such as this, that are based on the one sided misinformation given by Mr. Galli.)

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#2994211 - 12/27/11 02:53 AM Re: Have we hit the wall? [Re: Lowlight]
Gerard Schultz Offline
Sergeant

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 120
Loc: South Africa
 
---------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Lowlight:
 
We asked, we offered, we were turned down, so take anything written by someone with a vested interested with a grain of salt, especially when they love to debate but refuse to participate. Of course they will have issue when the numbers don't match their $12.00 "per" bullet offering.
---------------------------------------------------

This is one of the reasons why I declined taking part in the comparison. It is not the main reason.

The main reason why I declined participation, is that it does not suit GSC to do so at the moment. I am mystified why this is not accepted. Frank, which part of "It does not suit GSC to participate in a test at this moment" do you not understand? In our correspondence about this matter your first mail stated:
---------------------------------------------------------------
I read the exchange on the site and wanted to let you know, if you want us to shoot your rounds we would be happy to do so
--------------------------------------------------------------------
My response to your invitation was:
---------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the thought but GSC will not be participating. We are involved in a number of projects that is eating all the available time and there is no way we can make the deadline I see for this exercise. Also, the fact that only one supplier will be allowed to have matched equipment and that one shooter has been testing extensively for this supplier, with dedicated equipment, makes that we would rather not be involved here.

Kind regards,
Gerard

---------------------------------------------------------------
Now my perception is that the additional reason of your animosity towards GSC, since some time back, comes to light. You asked, I declined, politely, I think. I even gave reasons. Now you take it personally and start talk about "vested interest in selling a $12.00 bullet" amongst other gross inaccuracies. A visit to http://www.gsgroup.co.za/orderspusa.html will show that, even the most expensive way of buying SP Bullets (one box shipped by air halfway across the globe) comes to $2.20 per bullet. Do you wonder why I now have a bad feeling about the whole affair, that possibly was not present initially? You need to change your attitude and stop making mistakes of this magnitude.

SP Bullets sold to private individuals make up a desperately small part of GSC sales. The time and work invested for this smal return makes it a labour of love. Actions such as yours make it otherwise. Would you like to see that GSC suspend SP Bullet sales to individuals and carry on dealing only with institutions? It will be very cost effective to do so and may be the path to follow.
_________________________
It is nowise foolish to tilt at windmills, providing you learn to knock them down.

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#2994258 - 12/27/11 05:07 AM Re: Have we hit the wall? [Re: Wadcutter]
Jeffvn Offline
Master Sergeant

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 2340
Loc: Las Vegas, NV
 
I'm confused Gerard, when I do a search I find this link and these prices. Do you have more than one site running wsith different price lists?

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/orderspsa.html

this one says, $601.00 for 50 bullets = $12.02 each.

Jeffvn
_________________________
AA, its true I admit it smile

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#2994287 - 12/27/11 05:47 AM Re: Have we hit the wall? [Re: Wadcutter]
Lowlight Online   shocked

Stormageddon

Registered: 04/14/01
Posts: 17413
Loc: Base of the Rockies
Loves to debate, with clearly flawed information as anyone can see the 338 bullets listed on the site are not $2 per bullet, simply follow the link Jeff has posted. (GS: See my comment about this in my post below.)

I would point how cryptically telling the line,
Quote:
"It does not suit GSC to participate in a test at this moment"

Is, Because for more than a year everyone on this site has watched the ELR Bullet Battle and in fact 3 times this was tried and failed, if it didn't suit your current position why bother to try and derail this test as you have ? (GS: This is a blatant lie.  Not once has GSC attempted to derail the Sniper's Hide test. GSC politely declined to participate and the reasons were given.  Mr. Galli's refusal to accept this and his subsequent petulant behaviour is strange indeed.) This has been the driving question everyone was looking forward toanswering, how do we end the debate, settle the fight. The answer was to actually shoot the bullets and vet the claims. So it appears your issue is with pulling the curtain back to expose the truth. (GS: The truth is that the old GSC bullet used, did not do badly at all, given the obstacles Mr. Galli engineered deliberately or in ignorance.)

As far as my personal issue, I had none until you decided to insult my "enthusiasm" as you put it. That my "enthusiasm" had no busiest conducting this test, I'd be happy to quote that line for everyone to read. (GS: Mr. Galli is referring to my email of 24 December 2011 on this page.  http://www.gsgroup.co.za/sh.html  See the 9th GSC response under that date and decide for yourself if it was insulting in any way.)  In fact in light of your decline I even offered to move the bar giving you any concession you needed to alleviate your concerns. To the point of bringing in Cory and using 3 brand new Ashbury rifles that were used, and making sure nobody that shot was intimately familiar with the object of your insecurities. Clearly by the results Noel was not given an unfair advantage. (GS: Mr. Galli steadfastly refuses to accept that GSC declined simply because of lack of time to support this initiative. The circumstances around the test played a very much secondary role. See the email exchange between Mr. Galli and myself. http://www.gsgroup.co.za/sh.html)

Before you go pointing your finger at my gross inaccuracies I suggest you proof read your own statements. Reference the work up to the test, as well as the results and the reaction from the end users. Nobody has drawn any final conclusions, however your protests are duly noted.
_________________________
Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
--Frank Outlaw

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#2994315 - 12/27/11 06:17 AM Re: Have we hit the wall? [Re: Wadcutter]
Lowlight Online   shocked

Stormageddon

Registered: 04/14/01
Posts: 17413
Loc: Base of the Rockies
 
------------------------------------------------------------
Gerard posted:
SP Bullets sold to private individuals make up a desperately small part of GSC sales. The time and work invested for this smal return makes it a labour of love. Actions such as yours make it otherwise. Would you like to see that GSC suspend SP Bullet sales to individuals and carry on dealing only with institutions? It will be very cost effective to do so and may be the path to follow.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Cut off your nose to spite your face?

I fail to see how this effects me? With so many choices in this space, and more on the way, I am not sure your thinking here in saying this?

Could one say this points to the question, "are they worth it, and is the data given by the maker accurate? " because one could ask, that when questioned, taking your ball and running home is a serious red flag. (GS: This raises the question why the claimed BC data for other small manufacturers were not given in the SH test.  Data claimed for some of the other bullets tested border on the prepostorous but GSC is singled out for criticism. Strange indeed.)  

You cried foul before the first round flew, (GS: There is that lie again.) you continue to cry foul, (GS: Now with good reason, I think.) yet offered me nothing but insults and to say you have data from the Horus Ballistic computer that contradicts what is being done before everything was done. (GS: I am mystified by the statement that I offered nothing but insults. If anything, all insults came from Mr. Galli. The reader my be the judge of this.)
_________________________
Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
--Frank Outlaw

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#2994357 - 12/27/11 06:48 AM Re: Have we hit the wall? [Re: Lowlight]
Gerard Schultz Offline
Sergeant

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 120
Loc: South Africa
 
Jeff,
--------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
I'm confused Gerard, when I do a search I find this link and these prices.
---------------------------------------------------------
Why do a search? Just go to www.gscustom.co.za

On the GS Custom South Africa site, in the navigation bar, you will find "Distributors". There you may choose your region and that will take you to any one of six sites, depending on which region you choose. You will then find prices in Euro to suit your region. Prices in NZ$ and AUS$. Prices in US$. If you choose South Africa, you will go to the South African distributors. If you choose 'ORDERS' from the nav bar, the top of the page says: Order direct from GSC. GSC is in South Africa. The South African currency is ZAR. The price for 50 x 338232SP bullets is 601.00 and that is given in Rands because it is the South African Price list.

Frank,
------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
simply follow the link Jeff has posted.
------------------------------------------------------
How about following the link I posted? Does it say anywhere on Jeff's link that it is the US$ price? In fact, at the top of the price column on Jeff's linked page it states:
"VAT and POSTAGE INCLUDED Speed services extra" Do you have Value Added Tax in the US that covers all purchases across the 50 states?
------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
So it appears your issue is with pulling the curtain back to expose the truth.
------------------------------------------------------
Such drama. GSC is not that important. At least we do not think we are. We are not complicated people. When I say something, take it at face value. There is no hidden meaning, no subterfuge, it means what it says.

However, the bottom line is as I said in my reply to your first email: "Thanks for the thought but GSC will not be participating. We are involved in a number of projects that is eating all the available time and there is no way we can make the deadline I see for this exercise." Now, as I said before, which part of 'we are busy' do you not understand? You can throw your toys as much as you like, we have no time available to participate. It is unfortunate but it is reality and the way it is.
------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Cut off your nose to spite your face?
------------------------------------------------------
No, just be more cost effective. That is in fact the opposite of 'Cut off your nose'.
------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Could one say this points to the question, "are they worth it, and is the data given by the maker accurate? "
------------------------------------------------------
More drama. See: "We are not complicated people." The data will remain on our site and it will be changed as better data becomes available and as product improves. It will probably never be absolute. Your testing proves that there is no maker that has accurate data. I will make this prediction: When you think you have an accurate data set, you will be proven wrong. Ballistics is not as simple as what you think it is. Ask anyone who knows.
_________________________
It is nowise foolish to tilt at windmills, providing you learn to knock them down.

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#2994389 - 12/27/11 07:12 AM Re: Have we hit the wall? [Re: Wadcutter]
Lowlight Online   shocked

Stormageddon

Registered: 04/14/01
Posts: 17413
Loc: Base of the Rockies
 
Drama, pot calling the kettle black, you havent shied away from one minute of the drama since the beginning. In fact you propelled it before the first round was even fired and tried to discredit this before you saw a single number. (GS: Mr. Galli continues to perpetuate this lie.  At no pint did GSC or me try to discredit or derail the Sniper's Hide initiative before it took place.  Since then, I have pointed out where errors were made but Mr. Galli chose to attack and eventually ban me, rather than opt for fact.)

This is a pattern with you, and it was your choice to personally attack me so that you could include me in your little drama with Noel. (GS: What can I say to this, other than that it has no basis in fact.)

As far ballistics i am apparently much more aware of the inconsistencies than you are since you told me because we were different on all counts our data was flawed. The reason why I suggested and helped moderate the actual "shoot" as opposed to citing drop tables from a piece of software as you noted to me. You felt the software data was more accurate then actually shooting it. (GS: Having pointed out where Mr. Galli went wrong seems to have raised his ire.  It seems that he will not entertain any opinion other than what he states and assumes that he knows all there is to know about determining BC.)

To your charge that you are simply too busy, well that is a bit odd. Too busy to email data, or make something available even at cost but not too busy to endless debate the issue. People see that for what it is, you were not asked anything more than anyone else, yet you've been here since the beginning fighting the test as wrong. (GS: There is the perpetuation of the lie once again. Note that my posts on SH preceded the test by some time and that, once GSC started on the schedule of expansion in the USA, all but stopped.) Too busy to set the record straight but not too busy to argue your point. (GS: Anyone can see by the dates that time was the reason why GSC could not participate in the SH test and that Mr. Galli will not accept this fact.  His statement is simply vindictive.)

I do thank you for clarifying the price and the site. Now we'll see about getting someone to buy a lot of bullets while they are still available. At that price I see no reason why SH wouldn't invest in some to try at distance. (GS: To date SH or Mr. Galli has not bought, or attempted to buy, anything from GSC.)

Remember you chose the fight, I was offering any concession I could think of because you were one of the loudest voices in all this. (GS: The lie again.) Instead you choose to insult me personally simply because you didn't want to be put alongside Noel. (GS: It has been pointed out to Mr. Galli that ZA (Noel) has not participated in anything worth while for the last 4 or 5 years.  The ZA participation in the test was with a bullet that was supplied by ZA and several years old.  Mr. Galli, however, continues to protect ZA while attacking a manufacturer who is actually producing bullets that work very well, when applied as GSC suggests.)

You need to get back to work I suspect your wasting a lot of time.
_________________________
Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
--Frank Outlaw

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#2994544 - 12/27/11 08:34 AM Re: Have we hit the wall? [Re: Wadcutter]
Augustus Offline
Sergeant

Registered: 02/27/09
Posts: 259
Loc: OK
 
Mr. Schultz I have no interest in this other than to find a superior 375 bullet. I e-mailed your daughter and got a price on the 414 375. They were going to cost a shade over 6 dollars each delivered and 10 to 12 wk wait. Cutting Edge, ZA, and Rocky Mtn all sent bullets to me for testing w/o charge. Cutting Edge sent far more than I needed for testing and when I tried to return them he told me to keep them.

Your company has been advertising the 414 375 for a long time now as having a BC of 1.250 and stable out of an 8 twist. I would just like to say that after firing a lot of different shapes, wts, and lengths I have come to the conclusion that you are full of shit. I also think that you are well aware that your claims are bogus, this would explain your unwillingness to provide samples to unbiased folks for testing.

Extremist 458 and a fellow that goes by Shoot1760 on this site gave me a ration of poop a while back and was singing the praises of this 414. Well as it turned out 1760 finally recieved some of the 414s and fired them from an 8.25 twist. He only fired a few of them and basically reported they wasnt worth testing further.

I havent looked the thread up but you should be able to find it. You should be able do a search on SHOOT1760 on this site and KellyZier on Longrangehunting and view the thread. This report is from a guy that spent a considerable amount of time singing the praises of the 414 prior to shooting any of them, he dropped them like a dirty shirt after firing only a few of them then slinked away and I havent heard from him since. I truly hope he is OK, he seemed like a nice guy who had swallowed Extremist 458s bull shit, hook, line, and sinker.

Now I am going to go out on a limb, If the current 414 mono-metal GS 414 has a BC of 1.250 and is stable out of an 8 twist at the top velocity the 375 Chey can push them, I will kiss your ass on a court house step and give you all day to draw a crowd. The court house will be one of my choosing since I dont like to travel. Now I sincerely believe that you and your companies reputation is at stake here, you really should show us what you got.
e

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#2994550 - 12/27/11 08:36 AM Re: Have we hit the wall? [Re: Lowlight]
Gerard Schultz Offline
Sergeant

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 120
Loc: South Africa
 
Frank,
--------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Drama, pot calling the kettle black, you havent shied away from one minute of the drama since the beginning.
---------------------------------------------------
On both page 1 and 2 of the 'TEST' thread, Noel insulted me directly. You chose to let it slide. I did not. After the second I replied.

When you decided to delete a post, you deleted mine. When I pointed that out, you deleted a comment Noel made to Anthony. You address me on open forum but with Noel you do so in private.

Do you wonder why I do not trust you?
---------------------------------------------------
Quote:
As far ballistics i am apparently much more aware of the inconsistencies than you are since you told me because we were different on all counts our data was flawed.
----------------------------------------------------
Where do you get that from? Please quote where I said your data is flawed.
----------------------------------------------------
Quote:
The reason why I suggested and helped moderate the actual "shoot" as opposed to citing drop tables from a piece of software as you noted to me. You felt the software daa was more accurate then actually shooting it.
----------------------------------------------------
This is what I said in email to you:" GSC has independent test data to 1600m (drop tables determined with Horus A Trag MP v3.76 to give dial up) done with the 2008 232gr SP, on which we base our numbers." Translation - The 338232SP was fired from 600m to 1600m and Horus was used to give the dial up at each distance. You assume wrongly.
-----------------------------------------------------
Quote:
yet you've been here since the beginning fighting the test as wrong.
------------------------------------------------------
Quote please, I did not say anything of the sort. Of course if you cannot point to the quote, will we understand?
------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Now we'll see about getting someone to buy a lot of bullets while they are still available.
------------------------------------------------------
While they are still available? I don't understand, please clarify.
------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
At that price I see no reason why SH wouldn't invest in some to try at distance.
------------------------------------------------------
Easy to deal with someone that is as pigheaded as you now seem to be. No more SP Bullets to individuals until after the test then. Problem solved.
------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Remember you chose the fight, I was offering any concession I could think of because you were one of the loudest voices in all this.
------------------------------------------------------
Quotes please. I suspect that I will wait a while for this one. I did not choose the fight, I only asked (politely) to be excluded and I never opposed your test.
------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Instead you choose to insult me personally simply because you didn't want to put alongside Noel.
------------------------------------------------------
May I publish our correspondence on this matter? I have nothing to hide and something to prove about insults.
_________________________
It is nowise foolish to tilt at windmills, providing you learn to knock them down.

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#2994564 - 12/27/11 08:45 AM Re: Have we hit the wall? [Re: Wadcutter]
Lowlight Online   shocked

Stormageddon

Registered: 04/14/01
Posts: 17413
Loc: Base of the Rockies
 
Happy to reply, heading to airport and will post the quotes along with your series of back handed insulted to me after.

In the mean time you keep addressing "drop" when we haven't even tested that, you keep addressing me as if I was the one crunching the numbers, even in your emails. You talk about attention to detail yet you fail to understand the differences in the test.

As far as the deleted posted, I explained that, when you chose to sit out the test I told you that you gave up the option to debate Noel. Also you will note and you even acknowledged that I spoke to Noel directly to stop debating you. The insults clearly flew in both direction you just kept baiting Noel about SHOT Show and I put a stop to it. (GS: My reason was because there was continuous promises from ZA to be at SHOT and, when pushed by myself, it turned out to be not so.  His promises then changed to a demonstration after SHOT show and that also did not happen. Yet you continue to protect him.)

Clearly the distrust was before you had any reason, the real reason you gave to me via email was because I misspelled your name, calling you Gerald instead of Gerard, which heck for all I know was the Apple Software doing an Auto Correct on me, as Lion does. (GS: There Mr. Galli goes, assuming and reading between the lines where only his imagination exists.  From the first contact I declined participation because of constraints on time and resources.  I have stated this repeatedly.)


But I will quote you in detail upon my return,  (GS: This never happened, of course, Mr. Galli found all manner of excuses to get out of the simple proof I requested.  The reason is that this proof does not exist and Mr. Galli knows it and I know it.  The only route for him to continue his one sided stance, was to ban me from Sniper's Hide.)
_________________________
Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
--Frank Outlaw

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#2994766 - 12/27/11 10:17 AM Re: Have we hit the wall? [Re: Lowlight]
Gerard Schultz Offline
Sergeant

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 120
Loc: South Africa
 
Frank,
--------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
But I will quote you in detail upon my return,
--------------------------------------------------------------
No need to buy time in this way. May I publish our correspondence? Then anyone can decide for themselves what was said by whom.

Augustus,
--------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Cutting Edge, ZA, and Rocky Mtn all sent bullets to me for testing w/o charge.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Without doubt that proves that they have more money than what we have or that they need to have their bullets tested or they know you or whatever. Does it prove anything about what matters?
--------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
I would just like to say that after firing a lot of different shapes, wts, and lengths I have come to the conclusion that you are full of shit.
--------------------------------------------------------------
You base your opinion on shooting all sorts of bullets, except GSC. (GS: That is like test driving several different trucks but leaving out one brand.  Then you pronounce that one brand as bad, based on the testing with the others.)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Well as it turned out 1760 finally recieved some of the 414s and fired them from an 8.25 twist. He only fired a few of them and basically reported they wasnt worth testing further.... he dropped them like a dirty shirt after firing only a few of them then slinked away and I havent heard from him since. I truly hope he is OK, he seemed like a nice guy who had swallowed Extremist 458s bull shit, hook, line, and sinker.
--------------------------------------------------------------
I found the thread and this is what he (1760) said about the 375414SPs: "GS only sent me a handful of the new GS414's.......the longer lead times of the GS bullets discouraged me from completing my test." You imply differently. Why? I also found that he had tried a bunch of other free test bullets from another maker and had all sorts of trouble with them. You should clarify the manufacturers in your mind before running off at the mouth like that.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
If the current 414 mono-metal GS 414 has a BC of 1.250 and is stable out of an 8 twist at the top velocity the 375 Chey can push them,
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dave fired the 414 from an 8 twist as well as from a gain twist with an 8" exit twist. They did very well all the way up to 3100fps which is as fast as he pushed them; good accuracy, good es and dial up about right for a calculated one. http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2348914&page=1
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Quote:
I will kiss your ass on a court house step and give you all day to draw a crowd. The court house will be one of my choosing since I dont like to travel.
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Talk about hollow promisies. Now there is one that you know is completely safe. The idea is quite entertaining though.
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Quote:
Now I sincerely believe that you and your companies reputation is at stake here, you really should show us what you got.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Some advice: You go about it the wrong way. I do not rise to insulting challenges. I have nothing to prove to you, you do not matter to me. I do not know you and may be wrong about this, should we ever meet, but right now I see a blustering, insulting individual who has his facts wrong and needs to feel important.

_________________________
It is nowise foolish to tilt at windmills, providing you learn to knock them down.

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#2995081 - 12/27/11 12:56 PM Re: Have we hit the wall? [Re: Wadcutter]
Lowlight Online   shocked

Stormageddon

Registered: 04/14/01
Posts: 17413
Loc: Base of the Rockies
 
How to win friends and influence people (customers)...

I went back 3 pages of post by Gerard and every one of them is defending his position with nothing to show for it... but more arguments, on top of more arguments.

This was our (SH) reason to get involved, to put an end to all this back & forth. It was clearly disruptive and provided no useful information. The idea, to quote Jered was to "shut up and shoot !" but when push came to shove, some stepped up, others folded.

You can go back as far as October 2008 and it's the same old story,page after page, the question is raised and everyone else is wrong, GSC is right and nobody understand ballistics like they do, even the guys actually shooting this stuff to distance. Fight until the threads are worthless and locked seems to the modus operandi.

The continued fighting between Gerard and Noel is well known and the only quote worth repeating is this one:
--------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Do you wonder why I do not trust you?
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Why because I was tired of the fighting and didn't want the "Test Thread" full of their crap, again. Forget the fact that I did go back and remove Noel's post too, as well I sat face to face with Noel as personally asked him to stop,' but still it was all about Gerard and his position, as usual.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Note that I only react when attacked. This is expected rather than running and hiding, no?
--------------------------------------------------------------

Being in constant defense mode, as referenced above, apparently since 2008, he has come to the conclusion that everyone is out to get him. Once I agreed to Moderate the shoot I was deemed not trust worthy and after reading 3 pages of posts by him, of which 90% is fighting back & forth with Noel, Augustus, Groper, and anyone else who questioned their anecdotal data which lead to more than one thread being locked, he has taken it upon himself that everyone who asked to see the results first hand is the enemy.

Too bad, I am done with it, I think people know where to look and as they say, "where there is smoke there is fire" Simply click on his name and hit "view posts" from the drop down menu. As we used to say, "enough said, " I am gonna let the shooting speak for itself.

I now return you to the drama, "as the monolithic solid turns"
_________________________
Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
--Frank Outlaw

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#2995221 - 12/27/11 02:13 PM Re: Have we hit the wall? [Re: Lowlight]
Gerard Schultz Offline
Sergeant

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 120
Loc: South Africa
 
Frank,
----------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Frank: But I will quote you in detail upon my return,
----------------------------------------------------------
No need to buy time in this way. May I publish our correspondence? Then anyone can decide for themselves what was said by whom.
_________________________
It is nowise foolish to tilt at windmills, providing you learn to knock them down.

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#2995252 - 12/27/11 02:27 PM Re: Have we hit the wall? [Re: Gerard Schultz]
Lowlight Online   shocked

Stormageddon

Registered: 04/14/01
Posts: 17413
Loc: Base of the Rockies
 
Originally Posted By: Gerard Schultz
Frank,
--------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Frank: But I will quote you in detail upon my return,

No need to buy time in this way. May I publish our correspondence? Then anyone can decide for themselves what was said by whom.
--------------------------------------------------------------

I am done debating with you so don't waste your time, if someone is interested they can merely search out both our posting histories on the issue.

nobody is interested in this sideshow .
_________________________
Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
--Frank Outlaw

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#2995340 - 12/27/11 03:05 PM Re: Have we hit the wall? [Re: Lowlight]
Gerard Schultz Offline
Sergeant

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 120
Loc: South Africa
 
"I went back 3 pages of post by Gerard and every one of them is defending his position with nothing to show for it... but more arguments, on top of more arguments." I did what you suggest but just went back one page. I suggest that anyone interested does that. They will find that the quote above is far from the truth.

Why can you not substantiate your statements, Frank? How about answering these:
"As far ballistics i am apparently much more aware of the inconsistencies than you are since you told me because we were different on all counts our data was flawed." Where do you get that from? Please quote where I said your data is flawed.

"yet you've been here since the beginning fighting the test as wrong." Quote please, I did not say anything of the sort.

"Remember you chose the fight, I was offering any concession I could think of because you were one of the loudest voices in all this." Quotes please. I suspect that I will wait a while for this one.

"Instead you choose to insult me personally simply because you didn't want to put alongside Noel." May I publish our correspondence on this matter? I have nothing to hide and something to prove about insults.

Why are you ducking and diving these issues? I did none of what you accuse me of. You are a piece of work. I wonder why?

"I am done debating with you so don't waste your time, if someone is interested they can merely search out both our posting histories on the issue. nobody is interested in this sideshow ." I think you will find different. Why are you opposing GSC so vigorously? Do you think 'done debating with you' will change the fact that you cannot substantiate any of the above?
_________________________
It is nowise foolish to tilt at windmills, providing you learn to knock them down.

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#2995398 - 12/27/11 03:33 PM Re: Have we hit the wall? [Re: Wadcutter]
Lowlight Online   shocked

Stormageddon

Registered: 04/14/01
Posts: 17413
Loc: Base of the Rockies
 
I am not debating you, I have answers to every point but it does nothing but to perpetuate this distraction. If you think "others" are interested simply have them ask me to clarify my position and answer you. At which point I will be happy to do so.

As far as searching this site, and my Lies, no, just one continuos argument as far back as 2008 -- View Posts yields this:
_________________________
Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
--Frank Outlaw

Top
#2995449 - 12/27/11 03:57 PM Re: Have we hit the wall? [Re: Lowlight]
Gerard Schultz Offline
Sergeant

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 120
Loc: South Africa
 
May I post our email exchange then?
_________________________
It is nowise foolish to tilt at windmills, providing you learn to knock them down.

Top
#2995483 - 12/27/11 04:14 PM Re: Have we hit the wall? [Re: Wadcutter]
Lowlight Online   shocked

Stormageddon

Registered: 04/14/01
Posts: 17413
Loc: Base of the Rockies
 
No, I am not going tit for tat with you... get over it.

you win, I am making it all up, our testing is flawed and we failed to understand the nature of the science behind the ballistics, you're of a superior intellect and have thoroughly routed me --- by calling me out and my failure to address your points, I have clearly shown I am at fault here.

Lowlight - Loser !

GSC= Winning !

I am out of this.
_________________________
Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
--Frank Outlaw

Top
#2995510 - 12/27/11 04:30 PM Re: Have we hit the wall? [Re: Lowlight]
Gerard Schultz Offline
Sergeant

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 120
Loc: South Africa
 
Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.

Clicking on my name and then on View Posts yields interesting facts for the first page. It is a mix of general information answers and answers to Noel, Groper, Augustus and yourself. Apart from the general information, the same names crop up with monotonous regularity. Funny thing is, my posts to the few of you are always replies. Not initiating anything, just replies. Significant. Just like the refusal to let me post our correspondence.
---------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Fight until the threads are worthless and locked seems to the modus operandi.
---------------------------------------------------------
How many threads have you locked due to argument as you state? One? Two? More than two? (GS: The fact that Mr. Galli has not replied to this statement proves that he realises he has made another mistake.)
_________________________
It is nowise foolish to tilt at windmills, providing you learn to knock them down.

Top
#2995655 - 12/27/11 05:40 PM Re: Have we hit the wall? [Re: Wadcutter]
Augustus Offline
Sergeant

Registered: 02/27/09
Posts: 259
Loc: OK
 
Mr.Schultz, I will go back and read the posts from 1760 and if I misrepresented something I will backtrack here on this forum. As I recall 1760 reported something happened to one or more of the rds that he could not explain. Mr Viers tests were very limited and he himself admitted getting mixed up about how much elevation he had on the scope. He reported an insanely tight group (2 shots I believe ) at extended range. Why have we not heard any more about this breakthrough.

The reason I have become so frustrated with this process is that I have tested several bullets. The first was the Viking from Germany. You are probably familiar with this one. The maker of this bullet advertised it to have a 1.5 BC. I bought 300 of these and had them shipped over here. I also had a rifle built per the instructions of Lutz. The viking is totally unstable out of the 8 twist that Lutz said would work. I also fired it from a Bartlien 6.5-13 gain twist with the same dismal results.

Then I tried the LM 119 which was also extremely unstable. After that came the ZA series and I fired several prototypes, some of which were stable and some that were not. Then came the Gen 1 Rocky Mtn. that turned to dust when fired from the 8 twist. I did not try them from the 6.5 for obvious reasons. There is a Gen 2 Rocky Mtn that is supposed to have a thicker jacket and may fare better out of the 8 twist. After that came four prototypes from Cutting Edge that developed into a very accurate bullet with respectable BC according to drop tests out to a mile.

Anyway I may be just trying to be important. If thats the case it has cost me a small fortune and I still dont have a 375 bullet with a BC above 1. I thought the Cutting Edge 400 was above that threshold on preliminary test but I do not believe it is at this time. I would like to see others put these downrange and let us know the results. Folks are waiting with great anticipation for a 375 bullet that will perform as your 414 is advertised. How about just putting a few of these in the right places show us all what they can do. In the meantime Ill be locating a courthose with a suitable view for all the spectators that will surely show up.

Oh by the way, would you share who tested the 420 gr 375 that Extremist 458 reported was stable from an 8 twist at 3400 fps. What case was able to get that kind of velocity?

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